In the previous post I had mentioned how the two basic powers of God of Omnipotence and Omniscience lead to certain startling logical conclusions. We pick up on Omniscience now and see where it leads us.
“Omniscience” means “all knowing”, as we all know (!). Again, if we believe in God, we have no option but to grant Him full Omniscience. Actually, every doctrine in the world happily attributes Omniscience to God. And then balks in horror from the logical consequence of the same, in that everything in the world becomes immediately predestined. There cannot be any “free-will” with respect to actions then for any entity in the world. Arthur Osborne explained it well in his quite brilliant editorial in the Mountain Path, April 1967, Pg 93.
“If anything exists already in the Divine foreknowledge of an Omniscient God, then it cannot be changed by man’s free will; if not then God does not know what is going to happen and is not Omniscient. If it is a cinema the whole story is already on the film, what has not yet been shown on the screen as well as what has been, even though the audience does not know what is coming; if it is an impromptu television show the operator also does not know what will come next”.
Our life and history is nothing but a film, half played out and half in the can, and not an impromptu TV show wherein we have the freedom to do and say whatever we wish. And necessarily EVERY small thing too in the world then has to be predestined - the shaking of the telephone wire in the wind, the falling of a leaf from a tree; for, who is to say which is a “small” act, which need not be predestined? We bend down to pick the small leaf that falls, and the bullet intended for us whizzes harmlessly overhead; and thus a “big” act is averted. Very simply, if ALL is not predestined, then God does not know what is going to happen the next moment, and loses His power of Omniscience. And if we deny Omniscience to God, the Entity then immediately becomes unviable, and we are essentially saying that there is no “God”.
Which then leads us on to the other most vexed question in theology - of “free will”; if every act in the world is predestined, what free will does a woman/man have? Every religion has tackled this question differently and all the multifarious approaches are beyond the scope of this post. Herein we focus on the Advaitic position and Sri Bhagavan’s teachings on the subject.
Sri Bhagavan repeatedly affirmed that every ACT in the world is predetermined, whether the act be “small” or “big”; however, free will is available to us in that we can choose the mental attitude to have when faced with the unfolding of these continuous and endless predetermined acts. The Great Dealer will deal the cards to us from our store of accumulated karma, we can then choose to be happy or sad with the event with a sense of identification or not. If we do not hold on to our sense of agency, eschew any sense of “doer-ship”, then whether the act be good or bad, the endless chain of karma will snap - leading to freedom.
[From “Day by Day with Bhagavan”, Pg 77, (on 3.1.46, afternoon)]
“It is true that the work meant to be done by us will be done by us. But it is open to us to be free from the joys or pains, pleasant or unpleasant consequences of the work, by not identifying ourselves with the body or that which does the work. If you realize your true nature and know that it is not you that do any work, you will be unaffected by the consequences of whatever work the body may be engaged in according to destiny or past karma or divine plan, however you may call it. You are always free and there is no limitation of that freedom.”
[From “Day by Day with Bhagavan”, Pg 78, (on 4.1.46, afternoon)]
“With reference to Bhagavan’s answer [above] to Mrs. Desai’s question on the evening of 3.1.46, I [Devaraja Mudaliar] asked Him, ‘Are only the important events in a man’s life, such as his main occupation or profession, predetermined, or are trifling acts in his life, such as taking a cup of water or moving from one place in the room to another, also predetermined?’Bhagavan: “Yes, everything is predetermined”I: ‘Then what responsibility, what free will has man?’Bhagavan: “What for then does the body come into existence? It is designed for doing the various things marked out for execution in this life. The whole programme is chalked out. ‘Not an atom moves except by His Will’ expresses the same truth, whether you say ‘Does not move except by His Will’, or ‘Does not move except by karma’. As for freedom for man, he is always free not to identify himself with the body and not to be affected by the pleasures and pains consequent on the body’s activities.”
[From “Day by Day with Bhagavan”, Pg 211]
“It does not really rest with a man whether he goes to this place or that or whether he gives up his duties or not. All that happens according to destiny. All the activities that the body is to go through are determined when it first comes into existence. It does not rest with you to accept or reject them. The only freedom you have is to turn your mind inward and renounce activities there.”
[From “Mountain Path 1982, Pg 23; “Quotations from the Maharshi” noted down by C. V. S. Aiyer when he visited Sri Skandasramam on 19.6.1918]
“A man might have performed many karmas in his previous births. A few of them alone will be chosen for this birth and he will have to enjoy their fruits in this birth. It is something like a slide show, where the projectionist picks a few slides to be exhibited at a performance, the remaining slides being reserved for another performance. It is possible for a man to destroy his karma by acquiring knowledge of the Self. The different karmas are the slides, karmas being the result of past experiences, and the mind is the projector. The projector must be destroyed, and there will be no reflection, and no samsara.”
[From “Conscious Immortality”, Pg 130]
“Individual human beings have to suffer their karma, but Iswara manages to make the best of it for His purpose. God manipulates the fruit of karma; He does not add or take away from it. A human being’s subconscious state is a warehouse of good and bad karma. Iswara chooses from this warehouse what will best suit the person’s spiritual evolution at the time, whether pleasant or painful. Thus nothing is arbitrary.Surrender and all will be well. Throw all responsibility onto Iswara. Do not bear the burden. What can destiny do then? If one surrenders to Iswara, there will be no cause for anxiety. If you are protected by Iswara, nothing will affect you. The sense of relief is in direct proportion to the reliance on Iswara or the Self.When a person surrenders as a slave to the Divine, eventually there is a realization that all one’s actions are the actions of Iswara. The sense of ‘I’ and ‘mine’ are lost. This is what is meant by ‘doing the will of God’.”
[From “Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi”, Pg 599; Talk No. 643]
D: The Gita seems to emphasise karma. For Arjuna is persuaded to fight; Sri Krishna Himself set the example by an active life of great exploits.M: The Gita starts saying that you are not the body, that you are not therefore the karta. One should act without thinking that oneself is the actor. The actions go on despite his egolessness. The person has come into manifestation for a certain purpose. That purpose will be accomplished whether he considers himself the actor or not.D: What is karma yoga? Is it non-attachment to karma or its fruit?M: Karma yoga is that yoga in which the person does not arrogate to himself the function of being the actor. The actions go on automatically. The question [about non-attachment to the fruits of actions] arises only if there is the actor. It is being all along said that you should not consider yourself the actor.D: So karma yoga is kartrtva buddhi rahita karma – action without the sense of doership.M: Yes. Quite so.
[From “Living by the Words of Bhagavan”, Pg 238; Annamalai Swami once asked that if one has a desire for events to happen in a particular way, will they end that way].
Sri Bhagavan said: “If a person has done a lot of punya in the past, right at this moment whatever he thinks will happen. But he will not be changing what is destined. Whatever he desires will conform to what is to happen anyway. His desires will conform to that which was already determined by the desire or will of the Supreme.”
107 comments:
Hi Arvind,
I have some doubts regarding this.
If everything is pre-destined to the minutest detail, when exactly is the plan chalked out?
When, with respect to the individual jiva, is the plan for his/her body's actions decided?
Let me elaborate the reason why I am asking this.
We know that, Bhagavan says that not identifying with the body and its actions is the only freedom we have.
Elsewhere, he says that loss of 'I am the body'-notion is self-realisation.
So the only freedom I have is to try and attain self-realisation.
Also, self-realisation is equated to freedom from all bonds of karma.
Which implies that there is no more rebirth for the one who has self-realised.
That is, one who has gotten rid of 'I am the body'-idea has no more births.
Hope, what I have said above (which is how I have understood things) is correct.
Suppose, Ishvara has decided that I will go through ten births.
Since this has been pre-determined has to come true, I will not be able to get rid of
my 'I am this body'-notion and attain self-realisation until my tenth birth. Because, if I attain self-realisation
sometime in the fifth birth, then I won't have any more births. Which means the pre-determined plan of ten births is violated.
Try as I might, I won't be able to stop identifying with the body and its actions till my final birth according to what is pre-determined,
unless, we grant that there can be rebirth for self-realised jnani-s.
But I think self-realised jnani-s have lost the 'I' or individuality, so there cannot be a rebirth.
If so, then there is no freedom for me to stop identifying with the body and its actions until my pre-destined final birth.
That freedom too seems to have been taken away by what is pre-destined.
Is this a correct conclusion that I am drawing?
So,
1) There is absolutely no freedom, not even the freedom of not identifying with the body and actions. (This goes against what Bhagavan says)
OR
2) Not everything is pre-destined. (This too is against what Bhagavan says)
OR
3) Self-realised jnani can have rebirth. (Flies in the face of all that Bhagavan has said!)
OR
4) My understanding is wrong about everything. (The most likely option :) )
Or is it that things are destined just before the beginning of each birth of the jiva?
And it is not decided as to how many (re-)births the jiva will have?
But this too goes against the idea of Omniscience and absolute pre-destination of every minute detail.
I do understand that true understanding clarity would come only on doing self-enquiry.
Bhagavan says in Ulladhu Naarpadu (Reality in Forty Verses), Verse 19:
The debate, ‘Does free will prevail or fate?’ is only for those
who do not know the root of both. Those who have known
the Self, the common source of free-will and of fate, have
passed beyond them both and will not return to them.
But for the sake of this intellectual understanding, can you please clarify regarding this?
Yours in Bhagavan,
Ram
--
Thanks Ram. Was just happy that someone found the post interesting enough to comment on. Sorry for the delay in replying, my mother has been somewhat unwell and what with some hospital visits and all, just have not had the time to sit down in peace to write a response. Apologies again.
The following is drawn from my understanding of Bhagavan’s teachings of course. I have not bothered for now with finding the exact direct quotes and all, and hope you will be ok with an explanation in my own words.
The “plan is chalked out” by Iswara for an individual when He lovingly selects from the store of karma seeds of that individual, i.e. from her or his “Sanchita” karma, those seeds that are to fructify in the coming birth as “Prarabdha” karma. Thus, at the point of birth, every act of the individual from birth till death gets frozen as it were, as per Divine selection. Then, our mental ATTITUDE to the acts as they unfold after birth in the pre-set template, determines what is added to the storehouse of our karma as “Agami” karma. If we keep an attitude of a “non-doer” all the time, the karma does not stick to us and no further karma seeds are added to our storehouse. Our storehouse of karma then starts to whittle down. But if we get too much identified with things, with the acts unfolding for us whether they be “good” or “bad”, our karma storehouse expands further, presenting even more options to Iswara for our next birth.
[Note that I say “lovingly” above because if we have had an attitude of love towards Iswara, He takes the proverbial ten-fold steps towards us by choosing those karma seeds that are best suited for our spiritual advancement. And if we have had an indifferent attitude towards Him, it is not that He is vindictive and will choose those “slides” so as to make us suffer, but then He does not intervene and the seeds are selected automatically as per a set Divine Law].
Note also that immediately the acts of one individual are set from birth till death, it implies that every other act concerning every other entity in the world, and even those events or physical movements in the world that do not have any individual in the frame, also necessarily have to be pre-set fully and completely for that time period. This is really very difficult to fathom and relate to the world that we see around us, and I mention it here only so as to plant that idea in the mind of the dear reader. Logically then, if there is Predestination, then there can only be “Dristi-Sristi” for the world, and the theory of “Eka-jiva” comes into play. In fact I can aver with full authority, that if any one of the three of “Predestination”, “Dristi-sristi”, and “Eka-jiva” holds true, then the other two also have to be necessarily true! But we wont get into the enormous complexities of the Theory of Ekajiva just yet.
Thus the “plan is chalked out” ONLY for this present birth by Iswara, and not multiple births. And since necessarily every other smallest bit of physical movement or act in the world is also immediately fixed, the power of Omniscience of Iswara is not violated. If then, you as the individual whose karma seeds have fructified and have been set by Iswara, underwent all the events and acts of this birth focused on the Self, you may become self-realized and become a Jivan-mukta, a Jnani in this birth itself. Thus, necessarily, one thing that is certainly NOT predetermined, is when you will achieve Self-realization, if at all. Note also, OTHERS [if they still exist that is; that there could be “others” independent of “you” is something which may or may not be, we just cannot say just now] will still see you carrying out all your physical acts which were predetermined for you; for you yourself, there is no “you” left, and hence there will be no acts, no “others”, and no world at all. Then of course, your store house of accumulated karma is wiped clean, no karma-seeds survive at all, and thus no more births remain whatsoever, once this body drops-off at the time of its pre-determined demise.
[Cont below]
[Cont from above]
Like you have written Bhagavan says that, “the only freedom you have is to not identify with the body”, and “the only freedom you have is to attain Self-realisation”, and so on. Not only this, He made innumerable similar statements with slight variations, all implying the same teaching, essentially saying: “you have the choice to either identify with the act at hand as a doer, or be a non-doer; the way to NOT identify with the act and be a “non-doer” is to focus on the Self, uninterruptedly and with attention” [paraphrased]. Hence He would say that Vichara proper begins when it is done during every other minute-to-minute and day-to-day activity of the body, and not really as a formal sitting-in-Padmasana-affair.
To summarize, we have freedom to focus on the Self always, i.e. to do Vichara. Our hands and legs may be occupied in some arbit activity, but we have the freedom to not pay attention to the job at hand and focus on the Self (or on Iswara, or on Bhagavan Himself for that matter, if that is easier for us!).
One of my favourite pieces of Bhagavan’s teachings is from “Conscious Immortality”, Pg 27.
“You can stay where you are and go on with work. What is the undercurrent which gives life to the mind and enables it to do all this work? Why, the Self! So, that is the real source of your activity. Simply become aware of it during your work and do not forget it. Contemplate it in the background of your mind even when you are working. To do that, do NOT hurry! Take your time, keep the remembrance of your real nature alive, even while working, and avoid haste which causes you to forget. Be deliberate. Practice vichara to still the mind and cause it to become aware of its true relationship to the Self, which supports it. Do not imagine it is you who are doing the work. Think that it is the underlying current which is doing it. Identify yourself with this current. If you work unhurriedly, recollectedly, your work or service need not be a hindrance.”
Further let me add that if one accepts that indeed every act in the world is predetermined, one may fall into negative fatalism of some sort. Personally I believe that one has to follow what I call the “as if” policy. That is, carry on your day-to-day activities AS IF you had full choice and there was no predestination, but know within what the truth is; and try and focus on the Self at all times.
Hope the foregoing may be of assistance in answering the doubt you had. Happy to take additional queries.
Best wishes
Hi Arvind,
Hope your mother is fine.
As to my doubt, it's been only partially answered. The only thorn sticking out is this: If Ishvara does not know how many (more) births I (or any jiva) is going to take until self-realisation, that itself makes Him less than omniscient. How can Ishvara not *know* something?
Yours in Bhagavan
Ram
--
Thanks for the kind sentiments. Sincerest apologies again for the delay in responding.
As we all know, Brahman or the Self is beyond conception, beyond description, it cannot be objectified or given attributes; from the Ajata viewpoint, only Brahman IS, there is no other. The moment we step out of Ajata however, even to the merest milli-degree, we have Iswara. In the Advaita system, we could say therefore that Iswara is Brahman or the Self with form. He is the personification of what we understand Brahman intangibly as. Much as we, the Jivas, are ‘in’ Brahman, we are ‘in’ Iswara. Can such an entity - not be Omniscient? Why have that doubt?
You say, “How can Iswara not *know* something?”. Well, “Omniscience” certainly means “all-knowing”. But it also means “all-knowing” of stuff which can be logically known, of stuff that exists in the world somewhere in the time continuum. Else it all becomes as absurd as – if Iswara is Omniscient He must know what a “square circle” looks like; if he doesn’t, why then - how can you say He is Omniscient?
Let us see how this applies to your doubt. Now, Bhagavan repeatedly made statements to the effect that we have the freedom to choose not to identify with the body, to choose the mental attitude to have with respect to an act /event. This actually implies that we, the Jiva, have the freedom to choose our thoughts. The thought we are going to have in our heads 10 minutes, say, into the future does not exist yet, i.e. not in the “present future”. And for what does not exist at all, no knowledge is possible. Omniscience does not imply knowledge of what is not in existence at all in the continuum of time (past, present or future) at present. In the example used in the post above, it is not in the film that is held in the can. Nor is our thought, 10 minutes ahead, of the nature of being fixed in that it is definitely going to be this and this. It could be anything whatsoever, if at all. So it actually only comes into existence at that point in time (and then of course, at that point in time, it is immediately known by the Omniscient Iswara). And so, logically, it cannot be known whether your thoughts in the future during your predetermined acts, will focus on the Self or not; implying therefore that it cannot be known at present how close or far you will be to Self-realization as you progress down the life-span of your birth.
Elaborating further on this, if that thought which comes in your head 10 minutes into the future is one of unabated focus on the Self, on Iswara, then it will go towards wiping out vasana seeds and lead to Self-realization. Also, it is possible that Iswara may have set the template loaded in favour of your focusing on the Self by building-in 10 hours of sitting in Padmasana every day. Thus Divine Grace has given you plenty of opportunity to try and focus on the Self. But you may still spent only 3 hours of the predetermined sitting in Padmasana on vichara, and waste 7 hours of this time thinking of worldly matters. That is the choice you have. And this leads to the whole point that since you have the choice of whether to do vichara or not, you may actually move further away from Self-realization by choosing not to focus on the Self.
And thus your Self-realization is not and cannot be predetermined; and also this fact does not remove from Iswara’s power of Omniscience in the slightest.
[cont below]
[cont from top]
Still, despite the foregoing, it is never claimed herein or earlier, that Iswara does not know exactly when you will achieve Self-realization (even though it is held that it is NOT predetermined). Iswara knows - in the sense that ultimately His Grace has the final say. In this birth if you focus on the Self diligently and consistently, you may have wiped your slate clean, and then are eligible for His Grace everflowing to take effect. But Self-realization is not an automatic right of sorts, it ultimately comes about by Grace and Grace alone. Your effort takes you to the “door” and you knock and knock, and patiently wait for it to open. Iswara has known all your thoughts the moment they arose and thus knows exactly how ready you are, how pure a being you have become. Also, since Iswara is Brahman or the Self with form, it is the Grace of the Self Itself that flows towards you and gives the final “nod” for your Self-realization. And thus, the “time” of the “door” opening, your Self-realization, is determined by and exactly known to Iswara.
A final point on the Jiva having multiple births etc: As mentioned earlier, since you have the choice of doing vichara in earnest in this birth or not, you may or may not achieve Self-realization in this birth. But if you do, subsequent births are impossible, though your body will still be seen by “others” to carry out its predetermined acts in this birth. Thus this logically implies that for EACH Jiva (leaving aside the point of whether there is one Jiva or many for now!) only ONE birth is fixed at a time - this one. Your next birth will then be laid out if you have not Self-realized in the present one; laid out in concordance with the effort put in by way of focusing thoughts on the Self or Iswara, during the enactment of predetermined acts. In fact, the theory states that when, or even whether, the Jiva will have a new birth at all, is something that Iswara will decide (or will happen as per His Will). It could be that the Iswara decides not to have the vasana seeds of that Jiva fructify for a very long time – approaching eternity, and thus for all practical purposes that Jiva will have no further births despite not having Self-realized; or have his seeds fructify after (say) 10 years of human time, or even, as some say, after (-) 5 years. Thus the point is that the unrealized Jiva will have one more, or many, perhaps innumerable births; but logically, only ONE birth, the present one, is fixed/predetermined at a time by Iswara.
Trust the foregoing may be of some assistance again.
Best wishes
If all act arep redetermined, how do we get karma ? These are not our acts ans these are not our thoughts, so from what do we get karma ? All this is illogic, it contradict sentence after sentence.
Anonymous,
The Advaitic logic goes like this: The Karma playing out for you now has arisen because you did your acts in previous births with the sense of doership. You identified with the previous act completely with the sense ... "I am doing this" etc. Then, if that act was good, it produced a "good" predetermined act for you in this birth, and the contra if "bad".
The acts you will do in this birth are fixed. For your next birth however, if you do your present acts without the sense of being the doer, no Karma will accumulate for your next births.
Best wishes
A great post, many thanks for this great explanation of Non- Doership, karma, etc This is something I am working on presently, events in my life have forced me to go inwards in the face of certain problems..
I have been reading a lot of Ramana Maharshi for help and guidance. No doubt I will refer to this blog post to keep me on track
Thank you
K x
Hi Anonymous,
Thank you so much for dropping by.
Wish you all the best in your journey "inwards"....
Take care
Iswharas absolute consciousness is in control...when Shiva and Shakti takes separate human births in a drama, how do they get back to their original state. Absolute consiousness controls..never doubt. Every minutest thing is preordained. The might Kali Yuga where you see the latest technology are all a tiny dream..played over and over again may be or revisited..Lila ad Lila ad infinitum......Shiva Shakti ki jai
In 1931, Einstein, in response to questions about belief in free will, responded with the following comparison of the will of the moon:
“If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord…. So would a being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.”
Thanks Arvind for post and responses to comments. Everything makes sense to me except I feel we don't even have the free-will to think our thoughts. If there is no agency, all free-will goes out the door. Thoughts, feelings, even the sense of having a free-will (sense of I) seem conditioned. Only freedom seem to be that of witnessing the conditioned phenomenon and that freedom itself does not seem to be "ours" although claiming it to be "ours" causes bondage/suffering and karma.
JV
Has anyone seen this quote:
"There is neither creation nor destruction, Neither destiny nor free will, Neither path nor achievement; This is the final truth". Sri Ramana Maharshi
Which makes sense as there is no agent to exercise free will nor suffer pre-destiny.
JV
How would you determine the the time of return of events in your all future lives due to past karma's. Is there any physics (cosmology) applied that your karma(due to feeling of doership)in form of electromagnetic wave travels with different velocity and reflects to you in different lives and times by identifying the electromagnetic vibration of our soul.Or,if karma get stick to aur soul how the return of events due to that is determined?
Exactly, how can I choose, when there is no I? when everything IS one and all and everything and nothing then there can not be any person or any me that decides now to see the self and not me.. This must be the self that decides or it just happens...
Hi Julia, thanks for dropping by!
You are right. To elaborate, however, you are right from the exalted paramarthika viewpoint, the Ajata viewpoint. To the extent that presently this Arvind is writing to you, the ego Julia, there is still the world of dualities present and we are in the vyavaharika realm. And herein there is indeed the deluded ego Arvind, which can and should exercise its free will to focus on the Self even as it types out a reply to you, a reply that was predestined to be the way it is now.
But if, with the Grace of the Self, the ego Arvind extinguishes, then the Self will shine forth. Then we can say “…. there is no I … when everything is one and all and everything and nothing then there cannot be any person or any me that decides now to see the self and not me”.
(Forgive me for using the technical vyavaharika & paramarthika terminology. If unfamiliar with these terms, more on this and predestination can be found in my last post “The World is Perfect” of 11th Jan 2020).
Best wishes
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If everything is predestined then Sanchita karma also should be predestined as all the acts God or bad of our previous life is predestined and based on that we will get our current life which again is predestined.
Hi Loki!
No. It is not the act itself but your attitude of a doer or non-doer that determines what goes into your karma storehouse as sanchita karma. Which karma seeds are then picked up to fructify in your next birth are again subject to choice … not yours, but Isvara’s.
Best wishes
Do thoughts, feelings, emotions are also predetermined..???
Becouse sometimes I feel that I am being made to think in a strange way ... The way to which I don't seem to connect myself after sometime....
Hi Shruti,
I know what you mean! There are times when suddenly a wild thought pops up in the mind unbidden. Or a bad thought for someone, even though we know that we are not like that. And we wonder … from where did these ideas suddenly come into our mind?
Actually they come from the push and pull of our accumulated vasanas - that tend to throw up certain thoughts into our head. But we always have the choice to squash these thoughts and focus on the Self instead, or even elsewhere as suits us, do we not? Short answer therefore is – no, thoughts (and feelings, emotions) are NOT predetermined.
To elaborate however, certain thoughts are intrinsically linked to a physical act. So, if the body is dehydrated, the thought will pop up that there is thirst. I will think that I should have some water and will go and pour myself a glass. An impending predetermined act therefore throws up a thought in the mind in that direction.
But what if we are lying comfortably in bed, motionless? Then the only predetermined physical activity can be said to be that of lying still. But our mind could be awash with thoughts. We may be thinking of what to do tomorrow, of the suffering in the world, of office work, of our loved ones, and what not, all jumping from one to the next at lightning speed. All these thoughts are random chatter, loosely sponsored by our accumulated vasanas. We have the choice to let them run and carry on with our entanglement in the web of the world. Or instead, to try and curb the runaway thoughts and focus on the Self …
Best wishes
Thaanks🙏
One can easily meditate when one is firm in conviction that he can do nothing special in world which already has not been done. So what if he is earning big or having great sex or even devoted heartily to mother father . What is mother father of this birth may be enemy of some birth or sexual partner of some previous birth. So why not be unconcerned in this matter and meditate on nada nicely to reach the source of nada or the source of prana or mind whatever you may say.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu
“Let the whole world and all beings be at peace and happy”.
xxx
Thanks anonymous for putting up this great mangal mantra.
In a sense it is appropriate that this appear under the topic of Pre-determination. Because at a deeper level the words are also a prayer for the World to be seen as Perfect (which implies pre-determination). Actually, apart from the obvious prayer for happiness for all, the mantra hides a prayer for Self-realization!
Best wishes
Hi, “Loka samastha sukino bhavanthu” asking for everyone to be happy is my favourite saying in Sanskrit. Please... how is it a prayer for Self realisation?
- Sian
Hi Sian, the mantra is one of my favourites too. The beautiful Sanskrit evokes ancient times, nobler times. And in its simplicity it hides deep truths. Let me see if I can do a new post on this ... give me a few days.
Ragards
Sian, and folks interested in “Lokah samastah sukhino bhavantu”, I have just put up a new post on this mantra ... on its hidden deeper aspects.
Gem of a post, Shri Arvind.
Few days ago I saw a video where Shri Ganesan had given a two part formula to live life:
Externally: treat all external events as invited by you in the past, and act whichever way it occurs WITHOUT internal mental reaction of like or dislike. Anytime we react with like or dislike, the action is saved for later replay :)
Internally: feel the sense of being alive as Self and feel the gratitude. This is self attention in its simplest form (I am present) and cannot come from a temporal entity but is a voice of Self itself.
By this two part formula one can realize Self and wipe away karma.
This was a beautiful sharing but due to Bhagavan's grace same evening I traced WHERE Bhagavan has given this advice. it was recorded in Guru Ramana (Cohen's book) maybe in Talks to on a passage on Internal Samadhi and External Samadhi.
While yoga samadhi's highest effort is in Nirvikalpa samadhi - where sense of body, mind, world is lost with conscious effort, Maharishi clearly states that this is not the final goal, because this excludes being able to identify as Self DURING waking.
So there he says, in outer activity, let ocean waves rise and fall, just know that it is a big ocean in a movement and no one can alter course of one wave. However inwardly do not react and stay such that the lamp of awareness is not extinguished. (notice that the Self awareness or self attention can continue EVEN amidst ocean storm). Then he says something beautiful. He calls the reactionless action Bahya samadhi (External Samadhi - mind quietened in external world) and Self attention or self remembrance as Antara Samadhi (Internal samadhi). and says when you know that both are one and the same, it is Sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi and is realization. That is when reactions do not arise inside (nirvikalpa) and you only remember Self but your mind/body acts as needed outside (sahaja) that is jnani state.
This morning I came across a quote on predetermination and read the quote that all events small and big are played out, it gave new meaning to my understanding of Samadhi and purpose of reactions and futility of them.
Then I came across this most beautiful article I have read in a while, pregnant with so many insights and as I read, I kept on asserting yep that is right (regarding how a new birth gets shaped to best make possible self realization to a jiva and how number of births is not predetermined and in ANY given life Self attention can put an end to this stream and also there is only ONE person dreaming the whole thing (Ekajiva) etc.
Thanks for such a great insight coming from your deep understanding and meditation and realization.
Yours in Bhagavan
Ravi
The only two things I would like to add, which you could consider, is that
(1) Ishwara is in some way a reduced (sa-guna) Brahman :) because the world, jiva and ishwara being a triad, ishwara has lot of power over jiva and world EXCEPT has no control over when and whether jiva pays attention to Self! The moment jiva pays Self attention and recognizes the dreamlike projection happening, he becomes Brahman. Hence Jnanis considered ABOVE Ishwara.
Again these are technical nuances, not to incite arguments. I am ok with whatever viewpoints. I was just saying that Ishwara is all powerful in the world, but if one recognizes the world is just a manifestation, ishwara is just the behind-the-scenes-controller of that manifestation so value for ishwara is only and as much as value for world. Ishwara gains his power FROM imagination of the Jiva and is coexistent. With realization he has to be dismissed as part of the dream, even though DURING the dream he IS the cause and effect driver and co-projectionist.
(2) Actions and events and totally predetermined, but thoughts are midway. Meaning there is choice in thought. At any given moment, we are free to choose one of 10 or so or may be 1000 but one of few choices. So there is seeming free will (choosing) from limited choices! To this list of choices is added an out of the world choice Seeking Liberation.
While this starts out as liberation from pain, then liberation from world, then liberation from delusion, Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi reframed it not in this negative reactionary fashion but as Attention on Self the eternal. Of course Karma marga teaches pay attention to work with dedication (no reactions), Bhakti teaches pay attention to God (both of these focus on the two of three trinities - World and God and have the Jiva in tact in some form though subdued, Jnana Marga directly pushes us to pay attention to the I-sense the true Brahman shining as I. So this point that thoughts are a multiple 'choice', I want to add.
Thanks a ton for great sharing and only through Grace one comes across such confirmation of ones newfound thoughts in expanded version written 10 years ago!
Yours in Bhagavan
Ravi
Hi Ravi,
Thanks so much for your kind words and detailed comments. One can see that you have studied Bhagavan’s works a lot … good stuff ! Have you also been visiting Sri Ramanasramam often?
Well, how can I respond to your note? Though there is no specific query that I can spot, let me address your comments on Iswara (even tho’ you have mentioned that your remarks are “technical nuances”). As you would know “Iswarogururatmeti murtibhedavibhagine”, Iswara, Guru and the Self are identical. The Self manifests as our Guru out of sheer compassion, as It does as Iswara. As a little ego worth nothing in the scheme of things, we need every trick in the book to succeed in the Quest. I believe that a prayer to Iswara, in effect a prayer to the Self, and again in effect a prayer to the Guru, has enormous impact.
I believe we cannot categorically say that “Iswara … has no control over when and whether jiva pays attention to Self!” In that zone, unless we have direct experience one way or the other, who knows what really happens? Do we really know exactly what powers Iswara has? Sure, we can choose which thought to focus on always. But, for example, it could be that the Mother of the Universe has the power to flood our brain with multifarious thoughts. What then? Instead of having 4 or 5 thoughts to ignore to pay attention to the Self, we could be facing 500 at one shot. She could scramble our brain completely making Self-enquiry impossible. What use then the supposed choice we have to focus on the Self? Or conversely, is it possible that She has the power to keep down the thoughts that bubble up in our head? Give us only 1 or 2 thoughts to ignore, and thus make it easy for us to focus on the Self?
Ultimately, of course, it all boils down to Grace and Its importance in our Quest. We may call it the Grace of the Self, or Grace of the Guru, or the Grace of Iswara.
Crazy short on time, else would have loved to chat more :-)
- Best wishes
PS: It has been a long time (decades actually!) since I last read S.S. Cohen’s book. Where exactly is this “2 part formula” to live life given? Stuff like – treat all events as invited by you in the past … feel the sense of being alive … and so on.
Shri Arvindji,
Thanks for the kind response and reminder that Iswara, Guru and Atma are one and the same. My pointer was more a technical pointer that jiva-jagat-ishwara are part of Maya, whereas Guru/Self is its substratum. Sorry if it sounded arrogant. Not at all. But in Ramana path, one should be ready to discard Ishwara since one does not fear the consequences. :)
Of course, as long as the ego remains, Ishwara, Guru are as real. and Guru is real even after realization since He is Self.
No question that subservience to Ishwara and Guru and Atma is the only way out for the bound ego.
After writing this passage because I felt this way, I was wondering if this is the ego talking so did brief search and found these words of Bhagavan in Conscious Immortality (notes of Brunton mostly overlaps of Talks but organized by topic)
"""
Question: Is there a separate being Iswara who is the rewarder of virtue and punisher of sins? Is there a God?
Bhagavan: Yes.
Question: What is he like?
Bhagavan: Iswara has individuality in mind and body, which are perishable, but at the same time he also has the transcendental consciousness and liberation inwardly.
Iswara the personal God, the supreme creator of the universe really does exist. But this is only true from the relative standpoint of those who have not realised the truth, those people who believe in the reality of individual souls. From the absolute standpoint the sage cannot accept any other existence than the impersonal Self, one and formless.
Iswara, God, the creator, the personal God, is the last of the unreal forms to go. Only the absolute being is real. Hence, not only the world, not only the ego, but also the personal God are of unreality. We must find the absolute – nothing else. (Conscious Immortality 1st ed, pp. 7, 8, 10, and 180-1)
"""
Regards
Ravi
Shri Arvindji,
Regarding the two-part-formula, sorry that was my own terminology. In Shri Ganesan ji's speech at Jinnuru 2016 with Shri Nannagaru, he gives Bhagavan's formula for handling outer events without reaction (total acceptance) while feeling the aliveness (Self) inside. It was in this video:
https://youtu.be/jhSRYv6L4uc?t=2359 His speech in English starts here at 39 minutes.
We are blessed to find a transcript if you want to browse to the sections before listening here:
http://www.srinannagaru.com/articles/english/translated/20160112SriNannaAndGanesanGaru.pdf
I found this two-part advice to be something I have not read in other books. But soon in talks I came across External Samadhi and Internal Samadhi and then my search landed me on the excellent page on archive.org which is Bhagavan's teachings concisely but comprehensively concorded:
https://archive.arunachala.org/docs/self-enquiry/
Here this quote from Guru Ramana was cited which agreed with Ganesan-ji's summary:
"""
Nirvikalpas: the internal and the external. In the former the mind completely merges in the inmost Being and is aware of nothing else. This is compared to a lamp protected from wind. But in the latter, although the mind is absorbed in the Self, the sense of the world still prevails without a reaction from within, and has the calm vastness of a waveless ocean. In both the Self is realized in its nakedness and the essence of bliss experienced. When the waveless ocean of the external and the steady flame of the internal Nirvikalpa are realized as identical, the ultimate goal, the Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi is said to have been reached. Nirvikalpa is effortless, whereas Savikalpa is attended with effort. ….
Abiding permanently in any of these samadhis, either Savikalpa or Nirvikalpa, is Sahaja. What is body-consciousness? It is the insentient body plus consciousness. Both these must lie in another consciousness which is absolute and unaffected, and ever-abiding, with or without the body-consciousness. What does it the matter whether the body-consciousness is lost or retained, provided one is holding on to that Pure Consciousness? Total absence of body-consciousness has the advantage of making the Samadhi more intense, although it makes no difference in the knowledge of the Supreme. (Ramana Maharshi, GR, 88.)"""
This led me to GUru Ramana by S.S.Cohen 2003 edition, section XII. Pages 80-87 is a great selection of Maharshi's detailed explanations of various Samadhis. I probably have read this a few times several years ago, but I read them with new meaning now! very precious. I will be re-reading this book which has three parts: part 1: memories of his experiences with Maharshi Part 2: Talks of Maharshi expertly organized under 15 topics and Part III a diary.
****
I am not a systematic reader of Maharshi, but I am a long-long reader :) I have been 'trying' to understand Bhagavan's teachings since youth, toying between Maya and Guru, and periodically He has reminded me like a tiger would stare at the deer :) and prodded my weak mind of vishaya vasanas to turn within, but last year He seems to have grabbed my attention.
Resources like yours, and almost everything I see, is increasing the resolution that use this opportunity, dont be a fool and let go. "Kottai vittudatheyum oi" he said to a disciple, which is the tamil expression for dont be lax and let go the guard, in one sense, but generally dont lose the opportunity by losing vigilance. May He increase our resolve to attend to Self with total attention and prayers to Ishwara for Grace in that pursuit.
I have visited Arunachala yes, but only thrice or so and have visited Ramana Mandiram in Madurai (his Mukti-kshetra), in a surprising act of His Grace in 2019. Hope to visit Arunachala soon.
Regards
Yours in Bhagavan,
Ravi
Arvindji
I totally agree and submit to you regarding these comments, mine is simply careless writing, more speculation than anubhuti.
"I believe we cannot categorically say that “Iswara … has no control over when and whether jiva pays attention to Self!” In that zone, unless we have direct experience one way or the other, who knows what really happens? Do we really know exactly what powers Iswara has? Sure, we can choose which thought to focus on always. But, for example, it could be that the Mother of the Universe has the power to flood our brain with multifarious thoughts. What then? Instead of having 4 or 5 thoughts to ignore to pay attention to the Self, we could be facing 500 at one shot. She could scramble our brain completely making Self-enquiry impossible. What use then the supposed choice we have to focus on the Self? Or conversely, is it possible that She has the power to keep down the thoughts that bubble up in our head? Give us only 1 or 2 thoughts to ignore, and thus make it easy for us to focus on the Self?"
Just one point I would like to add to my verbose notes, is that it does not matter if there are 1000 thoughts to choose from or 4 or 5. Choosing to pay attention Self is equally hard or equally easy. I mean that, for one who has to choose one thing out of 5 things, if the choice is increased to 1000 things, he get perplexed.
However if one who sees the need to attend to Self, even though I made it part of that list, in reality, it is a total right about turn, so it is in some sense a choice less choice or where the chooser chooses to stop and not make a choice.
I think everyone has to come to this question: Who is doing the vichara? Is it the ego? or Is it Self?
Thank you for your views Ravi! It is so nice to know that you have been a ‘long-long’ reader of Sri Bhagavan’s books, and have also been visiting Sri Ramanasramam …
Best wishes
Thank you Arvind-ji.
Dear Arvind,
In your comment of 1st June 2012 you have quoted Sri Ramana from Conscious Immortality that we have to do all tasks with the feeling that it is not I who is doing the job but the Self. The reasoning being that then Karma will accrue not to me but the Self.
Doesn’t that mean that suppose we instead think of everything else but oneself when doing a job, the karma will not stick to us? After all it is only when I am thinking of me that karma sticks to me. So why bother to think of the Self? Anything else will also do.
Also does it not mean that the Buddhist meditators will never get anywhere as they are focussed on mindfulness of the moment, or the task at hand? They are not focussed on the Self at all. So might as well think of anything, it will be the same as mindfulness, or the Zazen “just let thoughts flow through you”.
Thank you for sharing so much on this blog. It is so nice to read sincere write-ups on spiritual matters. Why don’t you write more. Also what is your full name.
Regards
C
Dear C,
By this logic then, if we are thinking of a hapless friend / family member whilst doing an act, we will transfer our karma to her/him! And perhaps find perfect vengeance in that if we keep thinking of our enemies whilst doing the most rotten of jobs, we can send them into eternal damnation!!
If we think of everything else and let the mind run riot when doing any job, we move further away from one of the primary objectives of sadhana – that to achieve one-pointedness of the mind. Whether we accumulate Karma or not comes much later. The path to Self-realization is not via actively trying to remove Karma seeds with a view to leave nothing to fructify for future births. This will happen on its own as the natural consequence of the primary sadhana, which is to purify the mind by a fierce focus on the Self and letting it sink into the Source. The theory of Karma is just an auxiliary aid in the process. It helps us better understand the nature of the world and develop vairagya, “detached attachment”.
The Buddhist techniques of Vipassana (mindfulness) or Zazen (Shikantaza) that you mention, again help achieve one-pointedness of the mind and can take us a long distance down the road. However, at some point we again have to revert to the Self. Thus they tend to be 2-stepper paths. And then you have to cross the enormous hurdles of “Anatta”, “Kshanikavada” and “Sunyata” sitting at the core of Buddhism. How do you sink the purified mind into the Self when you do not recognize the Self’s existence in the first place? But let us not get into doctrinal stuff - all we need is Bhagavan’s direct way which starts with the Self and ends with the Self!
Take care …
Arvind Lal
That means if one commits suicide, is that also predestined and the individual will not overcome his own action of taking his own life, however hard he may try?. Pls sir answer this and also I don't seem to understand that when ones sanchita karma is decided by prabodha karma i.e ones acts(good/ bad) deeds which in itself by the iswara at the time of that birth.....so what sense does it make when one commits a predestined act may it be murder, tehft, kidnap , rape , abuse, cruelity which are all predestined as per god's wish......so how can iswara be partial in giving one rich / poor family, developed / third world country etc when the karma or deeds itself are based on what he had written and unchanged tough however hard may one try......I hope you understand my query and answer it with clear explanation. 🙏
Hi Bhanu,
Let me start by a gentle reminder that the theory of karma is NOT to be extended into a fatalistic-approach-to-life mode; that “Oh, I am helpless to do anything, it is all my karma” approach. It is expounded to help us understand the mechanics and nature of this World - and thereby develop in us an attitude of detachment to it all. In practical terms we have to follow what I call an “AS IF” approach. We live moment to moment AS IF nothing was pre-determined, and make the right choices. But we keep alive the thought within us always, that is not us who do, but it is God who does; that we ourselves are “non-doers”. We try to keep our focus on the Self (or on God it that suits us better) at all times, even when doing the most complex of jobs,
So your hypothetical candidate for suicide cannot take the stand that “Oh, death by suicide is inevitable and written in my karma, why bother fighting it all”. She/he has to keep trying and make all effort to come out of the hole they might be in, AS IF it will work. Because one’s destiny is, after all, not known in advance to us is it? If one’s life is a car journey, our destiny is always seen in the rear view mirror! However dire the circumstances, who knows what miracle God may have pre-determined for us around the next corner, yeh?
That all said, yes indeed, the blunt answer to your question is that, like every other act in the World by every entity, human, animal, or even at the cell level by protozoans, suicide too is pre-determined. As is also the “hard try” that the poor suicidal person may make to come out of it all.
The second part of your query is not very clear but I think you are saying that if one act begets another, and that if God determines everything – why does he make some rich and others poor, why does he have some of us do good deeds and other do bad ones? (??)
Well, firstly, one act DOES NOT beget another act. Your sanchita karma IS NOT determined by your prarabdha karma. So you really have the choice as to what goes into your bag of karma seeds. As Bhagavan says, if you keep up at all times the attitude of a “non-doer” the karma does not stick to you. So, it is your attitude at the time of the act that determines your Sanchita, not the act itself.
But of course, few of us can ever hope to keep up the “non-doer” attitude all the time, esp at the most intense times when it is most important to do so! Inevitably our bag of karma seeds, will have enough material in it for a million lifetimes and more! God then lovingly picks out those seeds to fructify that are best suited given our spiritual maturity and needs. In ways which may not be clear to us now, our life is chalked out for us out of immense love and affection by God so as help us mature – to enable us, if we choose, to leave this life a better person than what we entered it as. And this may involve us living life as a poor person in a third world country, or even have some ghastly act done against us.
Hope the above may be at least a little bit helpful. I may mention that this explanation is given at the first level of Sri Bhagavan’s teachings and Advaita. If you are with me till here, we may try the more esoteric approaches …
Best wishes
So sir I understand from your reply that it is our thought/attitude/desire/will that has freedom in choosing what do you desire , what you want to become whilst doing all the activities right from scratching your back as Iswara determined for us, so these things that we desire get accumulated in Sanchita Karma seeds. As I read some where, it is essential for us to practice unselfish action /being unattached. It is then our Sanchita Karma seeds all get burned, our mind and tought on our bodily self is destroyed. (Karma Yog)......Yes sir I have gained some clarity, and seeking more esoteric practices if you have an interest in sharing..... Kindly share your mail id/contact
Hi, are Dreams also predetermined Arvind? They are similar to thoughts but unlike them are not in the waking state. It is a little confusing.
I think I may have met you when I was in Tiru a few years ago. You said you were staying in some rented rooms near the Yogiji ashram.
Regards, Priti
Hi Bhanu,
I meant esoteric approaches in terms of using higher level teachings to explain your query, if so needed. You need to find a proper Guru for helping you with “esoteric practices” as you put it.
Good stuff but … think you are all right now with respect to your earlier questions!
Best wishes
Hi Priti,
Oh, Dreams are a tricky subject in the context of pre-determination! Give me a day or two … crazy short on time just now. My dad is 94 now and needs some looking after, and then there are all sorts of household chores and other work piled up.
Sorry, you are mistaking me for someone else. I have always stayed in Sri Ramanasramam in all my visits to Tiru. Haven’t managed any extended trips there to warrant hiring rooms and stuff. In fact, I haven’t been to Tiru, for several years now. But hope to land up there on a more permanent basis sooner rather than later. That is, if Bhagavan has predetermined a nice little cottage or something there for me to rent/buy! :-)
Hi Priti,
Here then are some thoughts on whether dreams are pre-determined or not [Sorry in advance Priti / folks, despite my best efforts this one has remained a little obtuse. Long too! My fault, not that of the philosophy or of Bhagavan’s conversations]:
At the outset we may keep in mind that Bhagavan constantly reiterated that there is NO difference between the dream and the waking states. He would say that the minor obvious differences were either too insignificant, or have basically arisen because the mind is conditioned to look for differences between the two.
[A comprehensive compilation of these conversations is available in my post of 8.2.2013 titled “Just as Dream & Magic …”. If unfamiliar with Bhagavan’s views on dream and waking states, I would humbly urge the dear reader to go through that post first].
So, if Bhagavan says that the two states are identical, then it follows, very simply, that since every act in the waking state is pre-determined, every act in the dream state too is completely pre-determined. But to our minds this is severely counter-intuitive. After all, “thoughts” in the waking state are NOT predetermined. So dream, which is a “thought” in the mind (or so we think), cannot be pre-determined either.
But hey, is the mind active like it is in the waking state, when we go to sleep? No, obviously. The mind has subsided somewhat in sleep. Not as much actually as it is does in the “deep-sleep” state when even dreams are absent. But enough, so that we do not see the World, nor can we think our “thoughts”. Instead we see and experience these strange, conjured up images that comprise the dream. Clearly, the process of Perception has changed from the waking state. Instead of getting inputs from our 5 senses into the “mind”, the dream sequence is being directly inserted, somehow, into our “ego-I-instrument”. And thus it may be absolutely clear that dreams are vastly different in character from the “thoughts” of our waking mind. We may thus drop our instinctive equating of dreams with “thoughts” and perhaps come closer to accepting that indeed, dreams too are completely pre-determined!
At this point let us bring in an important conversation of Bhagavan’s from “Day-by-Day”. This is partly given in the “Just as Dream & Magic …” post mentioned above as well, but is reproduced below in toto. In it, however, pertinent to our analysis here are just the first and last parts of the conversation. The middle portion concerns other issues and can be pretty confusing if put into the mix here. [Coincidently this conversation was also forwarded to me recently via email by a commentator here (not mentioning her/his name since they chose to send a personal email), who felt that it showed that Self-realization too is predetermined].
Cont …
… Cont. from above
From “Day By Day”, 8-9-45 Morning [Note: The first person ‘I’ here is the author – Sri Devaraja Mudaliar]
-------
Mr. Subba Rao of Bezwada asked Bhagavan, “What is the difference between imagination and vision?” Bhagavan: One is voluntary and the other is not. But in the ultimate analysis, though not in the immediate present, even vision must have had its origin in the voluntary sphere.
Subba Rao: As dreams have their origin there?
B: Yes.
Another Visitor: It is said that our waking life is also a dream, similar to our dream during sleep. But in our dreams we make no conscious effort to get rid of the dream and to awake, but the dream itself comes to an end without any effort on our part and we become awake. Similarly why should not the waking state, which is in reality only another sort of dream, come to an end of its own accord, and without any effort on our part, and land us in jnana or real awakening?
B: Your thinking that you have to make an effort to get rid of this dream of the waking state and your making efforts to attain jnana or real awakening are all parts of the dream. When you attain jnana you will see there was neither the dream during sleep, nor the waking state, but only yourself and your real state.
I pressed Bhagavan, “But what is the answer to the question? Why should not the waking state also pass like our dreams without any effort on our part and land us in jnana, as a dream passes off and leaves us awake?”
B: Who can say that the dream passed off of its own accord? If the dream came on, as is generally supposed, as the result of our past thoughts or karma, probably the same karma also decides how long it should last and how after that time it should cease.
I was still unsatisfied and, as the result of further talk with Bhagavan, I feel that the waking state, though a sort of dream, is clearly distinct from the dream during sleep in this, namely that during dream it never occurs to us that it is a dream, whereas in the waking state we are able to argue and understand from books and gurus and from some phenomena that it may be only dream after all. Because of this, it may be our duty to make an effort to wake into jnana. Bhagavan says that we don’t deem a dream, a dream till we wake up, that the dream looks quite real while it lasts; and that similarly this waking state will not appear a dream till we wake up into jnana. Still, it seems to me that, because of the above difference between the dream and the waking states, our effort is called for.
------
Cont …
The first few lines by Bhagavan in the conversation are priceless pearls of wisdom from the Master!
“What is the difference between imagination and vision?” Bhagavan: One is voluntary and the other is not. But in the ultimate analysis, though not in the immediate present, even vision must have had its origin in the voluntary sphere.
Subba Rao: As dreams have their origin there?
B: Yes.
Firstly, for Shruti, who had a query about “thoughts” being predetermined [on 22.3.2021]: Note that in distinguishing between imagination and vision, Bhagavan emphatically states that imagination (or thoughts) are “voluntary”. So, Bhagavan clearly affirms that “thoughts” are NOT pre-determined.
On to dreams then:
At the outset note that Bhagavan has distinguished between imagination or “thoughts”, and “visions”. Though visions are seen only in the waking state, He goes on to equate them with dreams in the dream-state with His emphatic “Yes”. Thus if we substitute dreams for visions in His statement we get: “In the immediate present, dreams are NOT voluntary”, i.e. when they are running and concurrent, they come as pre-determined clips. But they are said to have their “origin in the voluntary sphere”. Thus in manner similar to what happens for our karma seeds in the waking state, the dream is being set for us by a process of selection from some form of accumulated vasana seeds. To remind the dear reader, our choice of being a doer or non-doer determined what went into our bag of karma seeds in the waking state, thereby giving our predetermined acts in our waking life a “voluntary” origin. So it is for the dream. Hence Bhagavan says in the last para in the conversation above:
“B: Who can say that the dream passed off of its own accord? If the dream came on, as is generally supposed, as the result of our past thoughts or karma, probably the same karma also decides how long it should last and how after that time it should cease.”
But is it Iswara who sets the template for the dream as well each time, like He does for the acts in the waking state? Well, nobody asked Bhagavan a direct question as: “Who determines what we see in dreams, is it Iswara?”. And so a little “two-paise” worth of my own view now:
For the acts that the dream-character plays out in the dream state, I believe, a two-fold process might be at play. In that, most of our dreams are probably being set by us only, in some unfathomable, automated manner from our inherent tendencies / vasanas. These would be the random, senseless sequences we see in our dreams night after night. Perhaps it is done to alert us to something. Or to enable us to let off some steam. I get myself to dream, for instance, that I have hit a perfect 300 yard golf shot, and even won the British Open! But seriously, in some unknown manner, the waking-character might be setting the role play for the dream-character, mostly. But then there are the infrequent, impactful dreams, those that leave us shaken to the core. These are visions of Deities and Divine beings, or repetitive scenes played over again and again. I believe that these are being set by Iswara, much as He does for the waking state, from Supreme love and compassion to fulfil His Divine purpose, or to perhaps set us on a particular course.
[I may mention here that I know from personal experience the impact that lucid, repetitive dreams can have on one’s life. Till class 6 or so I had the same repetitive dream, at an average run rate of about 1 night a week (but erratically placed, so weeks could pass without this dream, and then 3 or 4 nights I would continuously have the same dream). And the stark perceived-reality of it, the fine minute details that the dream showed me, were just staggering. It shaped in many ways how I evolved mentally, right through the formative years of childhood …].
Hope the foregoing is helpful Priti / folks!
Best wishes
Hi Arvind, thank you for this post! Why obtuse and long? If it was not so detailed I would not have been convinced that dreams are predetermined also! Request you to take up the other issues the middle portion of Sri Ramana’s anecdote represent. And in light of this conversation, is enlightenment also predetermined?
Namaste - J
Arvind-ji, thank you for explaining this complicated issue so well. I never expected that the answer would be that Dreams are predetermined just like acts. It seems so counter-intuitive as you put it! But the reference you have added from Ramana Bhagavan’s conversation is just perfect.
Warm regards …Priti
Hi Priti, J,
Thank you so much for the kind words!
J: I was wondering how long it would take for the Enlightenment question to pop up! Well, on the dreams issue I burnt the dal and broke a coffee mug in rushing thro’ chores to do the write-up. This time, if you don’t mind, I’ll try write something a little more relaxed. :-)
Bhagavan’s conversation of 8.9.1945 given above is of course important for the light it sheds on thoughts and dreams. But in an unintended manner I think, because of the way the conversation panned out, it raises serious issues about whether effort is needed or not for Self-realization, and whether Self-realization itself is pre-determined or not. It therefore is one of Bhagavan’s most cryptic conversations. In fact it confused even Sri Devaraja Mudaliar, and despite the last para that he has inserted as his own take, I get the feeling he was still unsure about all these things at the end of it all. So do get set for some acute-obtuseness from me!
There was some discussion on Enlightenment in the “comments” section, back when this post was written in 2012. Grateful if, in the meantime, you would update yourself with what’s there.
Best wishes
Page 1:
Hi J, folks,
Let me first summarize what was stated in the discussion on Liberation and predetermination in the first few comments on this article, way back in 2012 [have just added some quotes from Bhagavan for the point on Grace]:
1. Iswara pre-determines all acts in the World, whether ours or anybody else’s, from the time of our birth to our death, ONE lifetime at a time.
2. Self-realization is NOT pre-determined. It is not necessary that one who becomes Liberated will have a dramatic shift in her/his life role after Liberation. Their bodies may be seen by others to carry on the role of a family person, teacher in school, soldier or whatever. Only a few may have a Guru’s role pre-written by Iswara.
3. Though Self-realization is not pre-determined, the final nod comes from Iswara/Guru/Self. Grace is the secret ingredient in the noodle soup! But then will Grace be denied to those who reach eligibility? Bhagavan says in the “Gospel …” [Pg 39 in my edition]:
“You are surrounded by sunlight; yet if you would see the sun, you must turn in its direction and look at it. So also Grace is found by the proper approach you make, though it is here and now”
And from “Conscious Immortality” [Pg 158 in my edition]:
“Q. Why does an Upanishad say, “He whom the Atman chooses, to him alone does It reveal Itself, not to others?” Does not this seem arbitrary? [Me: this is the famous verse in Katha and Mundaka Upanishads; verse I.ii.23 in Katha Up.]
A. No. It is correct. It chooses those only who devote themselves to It, who become Its devotees. It draws such devotees inwards to Itself. One must turn inward to find the Atman. He who thinks of It, It will draw to Itself.”
4. To conclude then, whatever be the pre-determined acts we are carrying on, Self-realization is dependent on: the level of maturity we are at, the effort thereof we put into sadhana, and Divine Grace. So, we could be soldiers in the middle of battle, but if these 3 factors come together we will realize the Self then and there. Even tho’ our body will be seen as carrying on firing bullets towards enemy soldiers!
------
Now on to Bhagavan’s conversation of 8.9.1945:
The issues raised in the conversation are well stated within the conversation itself by “Another Visitor”:
“Another Visitor: It is said that our waking life is also a dream, similar to our dream during sleep. But in our dreams we make no conscious effort to get rid of the dream and to awake, but the dream itself comes to an end without any effort on our part and we become awake. Similarly why should not the waking state, which is in reality only another sort of dream, come to an end of its own accord, and without any effort on our part, and land us in jnana or real awakening?”
Page 2:
And so it is being asked:
Q1. Is any effort, be it Atma-vichara or any other sadhana, really needed to obtain Self-realization?
Q2. Is not then Self-realization also pre-determined like everything else?
Let us consider the 2nd question first. Because once we are clear that Self-realization is NOT pre-determined, then automatically, logically, it follows that it has to be obtained by effort and sadhana, or Grace, or some other means.
Sri Devaraja Mudaliar (DM) triggers a direct query on our question 2 when he “pressed” Bhagavan, “But what is the answer to the question? Why should not the waking state also pass like our dreams without any effort on our part and land us in jnana, as a dream passes off and leaves us awake?”
And Bhagavan’s cryptic reply was:
“Who can say that the dream passed off of its own accord? If the dream came on, as is generally supposed, as the result of our past thoughts or karma, probably the same karma also decides how long it should last and how after that time it should cease.”
Undoubtedly Bhagavan’s reply is stating (paraphrased): Dream and waking BOTH do NOT pass off on their own accord. So, they are NOT voluntary once they are running and concurrent. Our past thoughts or karma decides the course of the dream, our waking life, and when they both will come to an end.
But can we assume that the waking state should also pass like our dreams without any effort on our part and land us in Jnana, as a dream passes off and leaves us awake? As put by DM and the visitor?
Firstly, it is not entirely accurate on the part of DM and the visitor to assume that when the dream state ends, only ONE outcome is available, i.e. waking up to the waking state. In fact for each state, TWO options are always there at the minimum. One is to switch from one state to another. So for our dream state, we can switch either to the waking state, or to the “deep sleep” state. The second outcome theoretically possible is DEATH. So, we can also end our dream state by dying whilst dreaming. Who knows what state we wake into then?! Only the waking state is unique in that it has THREE possible outcomes when it ends. Other than the two above, the third is, of course, Self-realization! So, to summarize, for the waking state we may switch to another state like the dreaming state or the deep sleep state, we may die, or we may switch states by achieving Self-realization.
Now let us look closely again at what Bhagavan gently tells DM in the last para given just above on this page: “… probably the same karma also decides how long it should last [referring to both dream & waking] and how after that time it should cease”. It may be crystal clear then that the “cessation” referred to by Him, is any one of the first two possible outcomes COMMON to both dream and waking. That is, either a switch to another state, or Death - the end of the predetermined life-span of the individual!!
He has NOT given any answer as to whether Self-realization Itself is also pre-determined or not. It is only our over eager mind that jumps to that conclusion. I believe in His gentle way Bhagavan did not want to emphasise the outcome of “death” to His devotees as the most usual outcome of their anyway tough lives. And so His reply is cryptic but profound, in that each may understand and get what they need from His words at their own level of maturity.
Page 3:
[Note that we are in the realm of pretty high philosophy in terms of awareness switching from one state to the other, in order to understand subtle spiritual truths. But we are also trying to keep the discussion as simple as possible. As this is a complex issue, questions can of course be raised on various finer aspects of the foregoing. For instance, what about Bhagavan’s Mother? After all, She moved from a dreamlike state, possibly a comatose state of some sort brought on by Her fever, straight into Self-realization. These exceptional examples do not hurt our basic argument above, and such queries can be easily tackled if and when raised by the dear reader].
So now, at least we can say with certainty that Bhagavan has NOT stated that Jnana is pre-determined. But then, someone may say that the possibility is still left open for Self-realization to be pre-determined in Bhagavan’s system. He has not said categorically anywhere that it is NOT pre-determined.
He did not have to. We know that He hammered away incessantly that we always have the choice with respect to our thoughts to focus on the Self; that this choice is the only “free will” we have; and if we use our thoughts in this manner with enough earnestness, we will realize the Self here and now. Simple logic tells us then, that if Self-realization was pre-determined, this teaching of Bhagavan’s, nay all of Bhagavan’s teachings, become senseless and irrelevant. The whole point is that Atma-vichara strips away the pre-determined acts of life from the scheme of things, and hands us Self-realization out of turn, so to speak.
And thus the inescapable conclusion to be reached is that in Bhagavan’s system, Liberation cannot be pre-determined at all, even if we cannot find exact quotes from Him to that effect. And even generally speaking, the same conclusion is reached if consider how senseless the World will become if ALL free will is removed from the equation [not elaborating on this last line, not needed I think].
-------
If that is settled, we immediately know then that effort is essential for achieving Jnana. But what to make Bhagavan’s words wherein He seems to be saying the opposite? He says in the conversation:
“B: Your thinking that you have to make an effort to get rid of this dream of the waking state and your making efforts to attain jnana or real awakening are all parts of the dream. When you attain jnana you will see there was neither the dream during sleep, nor the waking state, but only yourself and your real state.”
Is Bhagavan saying that no effort is needed at all? After all we know that there are also many other conversations showing that Bhagavan would exhort people to do Atma-vichara, and if that was not possible, any other sadhana even.
Page 4:
One reason I gave the quotes from “Gospel” & “Conscious Immortality” earlier (right at the beginning on Page 1) is that they contain subtle instructions from Bhagavan on sadhana. He categorically says that Grace [i.e. the “nod” for Self-realization] is available to all equally, but “given” to those who turn towards It. If Grace is the Sun casting its rays all around, only those get to see it who make the effort to turn around and look at it. If the Self chooses whom it chooses, it chooses only those who are its devotees. Given Bhagavan’s gentle approach in giving directives, this is as clear an instruction as can be to encourage “effort”!
The Conscious Immortality reference has even more interesting lessons for us. Only the first part of the conversation is quoted on Page 1 above. The rest of it continues as under [again, on Pg 158 of my book]:
“All such thoughts as ‘Attainment is hard’ or ‘Self realisation is far from me’, or ‘I have got many difficulties to overcome to know the Reality’, should be given up, as they are obstacles; they are created by this false self, ego. They are untrue. Do not doubt that you are the Reality; live in that understanding. Never question it by referring your realisation of it to some future time. It is because people are victimised and hypnotised by such false thoughts that the Gita says that few out of millions realise the Self.
The order of asramas [four stages of life] was established as a general principle, i.e. to regulate the gradual development of the ordinary run of humanity. But in the case of one highly mature and fully ripe for Atma vichara there is no graduated development. In this case jnana vichara, i.e. the Self enquiry and the blooming of jnana, are immediate and quick.”
From here then we get a clue as to what Bhagavan is implying when He says that no effort is needed in the “Day-by-Day” quote. The advice of “no effort” is directly applicable to the “highly mature” people. For them there is no “graduated development” and “Self enquiry and the blooming of jnana, are immediate and quick.” Like for instance for Mastan Swami. But for the rest of us ordinary mortals, we need time and effort to reach the level of Mastan Swami first.
From here we also get the idea from Bhagavan that if we have thoughts like “attainment is hard” or “Self-realization is too difficult”, “I have to make too much effort”, they all become huge obstacles on the path. Our mind uses such thoughts to trick itself into not making any meaningful effort at all, as it convinces itself that it is a futile exercise. So Bhagavan says that we have to live, breathe and talk that “we are the Reality, and Realization is here and now”. “Never question it by referring your realisation of it to some future time”, He says. These and similar instructions then are intended for the mind to tune itself to the right, earnest attitude forAtma-vichara. These are not to be taken as actual instructions to do nothing!
Finally, the portion of the conversation from “Day-by-Day” quoted at the bottom of Page 3 just above, also is an instruction from the pure “Ajata” point of view. In fact, it was Bhagavan’s way to invariably add a line or two, in even the most mundane of conversations, from the highest levels of instruction possible. So when He says “when you attain jnana you will see there was neither the dream during sleep, nor the waking state, but only yourself and your real state”, this is not an instruction that can be practically put to use in sadhana by a lay devotee. It is intended to insert in the mind of the devotee, the germ of the lofty idea that all is basically the Self; that there is nothing else, and so nothing to do, and nothing to achieve!
Yes folks, there is nothing else, nothing to do, and nothing to achieve, but do keep up that effort in your sadhana relentlessly, as much as you can!
Best Wishes
Comprehensive! Nothing to add, nothing to ask.
Hope this time you did not burn your food or break any dishes Arvind!
Thanks .... J
:-))
Well, I buggered up the sambhar! Can never get it to taste like it does in the South. But the write-up is not to blame. Home jobs are really tough - they are relentless, never finish. Covid has been a hard task-master indeed. Hats off to all the home-makers of the world, they have the toughest job of all!
I want to ask that if everything is predestined then it is destined that I will ask this question or not.
But this question arose from my sub- consciousness and hence our sub-consciousness is also predetermined.
If our thoughts are predetermined then it
Merely up to the iswara whether one will attain salvation and or not and where one will attain salvation. If this is also true then why are we here in this planet doing our part while some have attained moksha earlier like Sri bhagwana Ramana Maharishi himself. Is God biased.
Please prove me wrong and loosen me from the burden of having doubtful thoughts about god himself.
I am the same who wrote the above question.
Lao Tzu have said that our thoughts become our action and Sri Ramana Maharishi said that every action is predetermined but it is up to us whether we think our self the doer or not and hence again my doubt arises whether our thoughts also predetermined by iswara as our actions are or is it something that I am unaware of.
Also I have heard many stories of Buddha telling his disciples about when they will attain salvation and where will this happen. So if Buddha know this then it must also be predetermined by the god.
I got to know that destiny and free will cannot run parallel and only one will thrive. If destiny thrive then everything is predetermined including our time of moksha and Sri bhagwana Ramana says that destiny thrive while also saying that we are free for moksha. Bhagwad Gita says we are the doer and in my opinion the concept of free will is better for us.
My other question is that why did God made this samsara.
My last question is that Sri Ramana Maharishi said whatever work is destined for us will be done by us whether we like it or not. But what if I don't do any work and run into the jungle leaving my life behind. Will the words of Sri Ramana hold or not.
Please clarify all my doubts.
It appears as if the law of karma fails at every step of debate for everything is predetermined. But Sri Arvind Lal ji said that we are free to not identify ourself as the doer of our deeds but these words seem confusing as only a person with enough good deeds would try to attain moksha and it will be the fruit of his deeds that he will begin not to identify him as the doer and hence it is also up to the iswara that it is time for this person to be free.
The best thing therefore in accord to what bhagwana Ramana have said in his talks is that karma carry the seeds of their own destruction.
Hi Anon,
It is indeed predetermined that you would ask the question that you did on this blog. As is the answer that the “ego-I” Arvind is typing out now for you.
The predetermination comes first, then thoughts. Before the pre-determined act gets carried out, thoughts related to the predetermined act will arise from your sub-conscious to make it appear as if you thought of the act first, and only then carried it out. This is the way the illusion of free-will with respect to acts is perpetuated in the World. And then, if you are sitting perfectly still, not doing anything in particular, and if you have not practiced controlling your thoughts, your mind will be flooded with a zillion things, with this and that, jumping from one thought to another at lightning speed. These random thoughts are NOT predetermined. You have the free will to control these thoughts and thereby strive for Self-realization.
So then, why do you say that God is biased? He has, in fact, out of immense love selected for you your life events such that you will progress spiritually in the best manner possible. He had to choose from your bag of karma seeds what was best available there. You yourself are responsible for what you put in that bag by either identifying or not identifying with the predetermined acts of your previous incarnations.
Bhagavan Ramana has Himself stated that if someone was to attain Self-realization relatively effortlessly, then it is to be taken that the intense effort needed for the same was done in a previous life …
The other 2 comments for later sometime.
Best wishes
Respected
Sri Arvind ji
Thank you very much for answering my question though it was confusing for my brain but I will look something to it.
You said the other 2 comments for later sometime but I am really craving for those answers as they correspond to a part of my future. Please do look towards answering them in the near future.
Thank you very much again for relieving me of my question.
Thank you
One more thing
If I have an addiction of some kind is that also predetermined.
Thank you again
I have an idea that supports both the free will of a man and omniscience of God.
The idea
We have the option to do anything anytime like I can post this message or not, I can stand and go out in the road, the kitchen, the bathroom, the bedroom, or I may book a ticket to America and leave right now to the airport paying enormously large sums but the thing is that I will only post this message and sit in the sofa for a while doing nothing mentioned above. I have the choice and I think I am free to choose anything while also maintaining the omniscience of God. There are endless possibilities in one's life, endless possibilities at every point of one's life leading to another endless possibilities for future and so on. The concept of omniscience means knowing everything including every possibility that one may have. Omniscience also means knowing endless outcomes, endless futures , endless consequences for one's endless choices and by knowing all of them together, which is something God can do easily in the blink of an eye, both concepts of free-will of a man and omniscience of God are thus maintained.
The only problem with this idea is that ultimate evolved souls like Sri Ramana Maharishi and Osho Rajneesh both of them rejected this in their statements. While saying something which is totally out of the mind of a normal being like me.
Thank you for your precious time.
Hi Anon,
Some points that came to mind from your other 2 comments:
- If we get into comparing the teachings of different Masters, we will always finds points of difference to muddy the waters. Best is to stick to the teachings of one Master till enough spiritual evolution has taken place. Then we may find that our path ahead for our specific needs opens out on its own.
- Destiny and free-will run concurrently always. Physical acts in the world are pre-programmed. Then, we are given free-will not to identify with those acts by being a “non-doer”.
- The Bhagavad Gita categorically states that we are just mere instruments, it is the Lord who is the “Doer”.
- If we feel the need to ask the question “why is Samsara created?”, we may take it that we will never understand why. We need to evolve spiritually by sincere sadhana first, and then either the answer comes of its own, or the question itself becomes meaningless.
- If you run away to the jungle that too was pre-destined wasn’t it? But can you run away from your mind? The restlessness you feel now will multiply manifold … here is Bhagavan Ramana’s teaching on this (Talk 54 from Talks):
D.: How does a grihasta (householder) fare in the scheme of
Moksha (liberation)?
M.: Why do you think you are a grihasta? If you go out as a sanyasi, a similar thought (that you are a sanyasi) will haunt you. Whether you continue in the household, or renounce it and go to the forest, your mind haunts you. The ego is the source of thoughts. It creates the body and the world and makes you think you are a grihasta. If you renounce the world, it will only substitute the thought sanyasi for grihasta and the environments of the forest for those of the household. But the mental obstacles are always there. They even increase in new surroundings. There is no help in the change of environment. The obstacle is the mind. It must be got over whether at home or in the forest. If you can do it in the forest, why not in the home? Therefore why change the environment? Your efforts can be made even now, in whatever environment you may be.
- It becomes counter-productive to spend lots of time in trying to figure out the nature of the World. This is to be taken ONLY as an auxiliary activity to help develop detachment. We may try to focus more on the primary job of sadhana, on solid meditation or whatever practice we are espousing. Why should we worry that “only a person of good deeds will be able to act as the non-doer" or not? How do we know whether we did good deeds or bad ones in our past lives, or whether we did them as a doer or not? It could be that we have acted completely as a non-doer previously, so in this life the Lord is giving us a tougher time to accelerate the process of cleansing to make us fit for moksha faster!
2 more Anon comments left!
Best wishes
Thank you once again for replying Sri Arvind ji
I knew you would say that going to the forest might also be destined. That is why it is hard for me to believe the concept of destiny for it never loses nor proves. If someone fell it was his destiny while if he didn't then it wasn't his destiny, if one passes you say destiny if one fail you say destiny and hence the concept of destiny can never be examined nor be failed.
The truth is I don't want to believe everything is predestined whilst I also want to believe it. For many bad deeds that I do everyday and I can't blame god for it. The truth is want to change my doings by not believing destiny. I am a student for UPSC and I feel like I don't study hard to the extent it needs me to. I throw my laziness on destiny and few moments later I start feeling depressed for future and forget about destiny there. For me destiny works on failure not on defining future. I have hidden my realty behind destiny. I can't throw my wrong doings, my laziness, my depression and my failure on god by saying that everything is destiny. I am weak. I am coward. Most of all I am selfish. I have been using destiny for my time wastage but upon thinking about my future I cannot say that God is stopping me from hard work because he didn't pre-decided my success and that he wants me to be a failure. I can't and mustn't use destiny for my failures of life for it will lead me to another failures. If you see my current timetable and situation you will definitely say that if this is pre-determined then God definitely wants him to be a big failure in life and you will also forfeit the concept of destiny. Somewhere in that tiny brain it itches me that destiny is for failures and success is hard work not mere destiny. God wouldn't predetermine my laziness, my negligence, my time wastage, and god wouldn't stop me from hard work. Why would he pre-determine it, so that one of his creation fails in life. My god isn't like that. He wants me do my best for him.
When I see someone successful , someone rich I say ' vo uski takdeer' but I never use destiny for myself for I can't use destiny. If I sit idle believing it is destined then I will fail my life, I fail my parents and most of all I fail the God.
Thank you very very much for your time.
I appreciate it a lot.
I wanted to say one last thing I cannot believe destiny without any strong evidence. The only thing that I sometimes think might be real prove for destiny is dejavu. But I don't completely know it's mechanism also.
Thank you
Hi Anon [10.9.2021 10.58 am]
Interesting the idea presented by you! I feel a little bad in countering it actually. Yes, Omniscience would indeed mean knowing “endless outcomes, endless futures, endless consequences for one's endless choices and by knowing all of them together”, and all in a blink of an eye. But then in your Universe, God will not ever know, NOW, which specific outcome will exist say 1 year or 5 years or 10 years into the future. He has then created a Universe which is completely known to Him only at the point of creation. And has ceded further creation (or evolution, if you will) to you, and others. Just knowing all the choices is NOT enough for the stern test of Omniscience. The exact characteristic and construct of the Universe each split second in the future, from now to eternity, has also to be known NOW by an Omniscient God.
And thus Arthur Osborne’s observation given in the main article above - that it is a cinema show with the whole story already in the cans, what has not yet been shown on the screen as well as what has been, even though the audience does not know what is coming …
Best wishes
Thank you once again Sri Arvind ji
I just want to put 3 more questions forward to you. You please comment on them and then I will keep myself shut on the topic of destiny.
1. Many jobs in the world don't allow the host to strive for jnani or at least even think about it. Jobs like sports player, taxi drivers, IT employees, teachers, professor, doctors and a few more which I am not reminded of at the moment, require full concentration of mind on them and the worker can't even think of mantra given by guru for God or can't even simply meditate for these jobs require you to think about them at the moment or even while not doing them.
While on the other hand so doing some jobs don't require you to the no about them and hence a person striving for jnani is free to meditate or think of God names. Jobs of these category can be seen to be done by those who attained moksha like Saint Raidas did shoemaking if I am correct, Saint Kabir did cloth spinning. Then if everything is pre-determined then some people are not allowed to attain jnani in this life.
2. Some intelligent people may renounce thier belongings and luxury to attain some peace of mind. But they won't have the way and guidance to attain moksha and walk on the path of jnani. Like people born in countries like America, Pakistan, China,etc. Then these people also are not allowed on the basis of pre-determinination to attain moksha for they may strive for it but they won't know the way. We can find people capable of attaining moksha but they don't even know what is moksha.
The main reason for Buddhism for going to China was that in India no one was capable for walking the path of Buddha at that time but there was one there in China. After a while Buddhism shifted to Japan for there was another capability there.
It was not that there was no one capable for moksha in China, Japan before Buddha but it was that they didn't knew.
3. Is suicide also predetermined.
I request you to answer this comment at a single time for this may be my last time in this site.
Thank you
Hi Anon,
Well, your persistence in asking questions about pre-determination is admirable indeed. But why not put that grit and single-minded focus to better use in meditation instead? In the initial stages esp. you have to first find time from your engagements in the world exclusively for sadhana. So, you could be a sportsman, a doctor, or striving for success in UPSC, for a start find 2 hours (say) to do Atma-vichara every day. Or even any other form of meditation / sadhana as taught by other Masters. Let the meditation work within you for some years. Why waste time on theoretical questions as to how a sportsman (say) will focus both on his game as well as the Self? Or even on how folks in America, or Pakistan, or wherever will achieve Moksha? If you put 2 hours aside for sadhana every day initially, thereafter, magically, you find that your practice evolves on its own to encompass your job and daily life routine. Meditation goes on by itself throughout the day. And all these theoretical questions will melt away on their own.
Wishing you all the best
Hello Arvind ji
So it means you don't have the answers that I seek and all that you said was written in texts already while nothing came out of your mind. Am I correct?
Thank you for cooperating with me for so long.
Hello Arvind,
Thank you for your writings, I have enjoyed going through them. How exactly does one focus on the Self whilst doing daily jobs? I keep repeating to myself that I am the Self. But I am not sure if that is the right way to go about it.
- Fleur
Hi Fleur,
Nice to have a name to address! Thank you for the kind words.
Just my two-cents bit …
It is all about building up the certainty within oneself that one is the Self and not the body, not actually “Fleur”. Initially this certainty comes slowly and only with hard practice of Atma-vichara. When contemplation on the Self becomes somewhat natural, it is easier to carry it into one’s day-to-day routine. Then the daily jobs go on undisturbed whilst we have the remembrance of the Self to “surround” us.
Bhagavan has mentioned that it is somewhat like a seasoned actor on stage. She/he plays out the allocated role with passion and seeming involvement. But all the time the actor knows that she/he is someone else and has a personal life completely different from the role that is being played out on stage. Similarly the “I-am-the-body” idea does not disturb us when doing our daily routine once we have the conviction that “I-am-the-Self”.
Also, there is no need to keep repeating to oneself that I am the Self, else it becomes a mantra of sorts and a diversion in itself. That said, certainly there is no harm in reminding oneself occasionally that “I-am-the-Self” and not the body, when one finds oneself too deeply engrossed in matters of the world.
Also, keep in mind that this walking-talking meditation (as I like to call it!) of keeping focus on the Self whilst doing daily jobs, is many times more difficult than doing Atma-vichara sitting in a corner in one’s room. So, please, no need to get disheartened in the slightest if the going is tough for a while …
Best wishes
Hello,
I write this in accordance to the first comment of this blog which came from Ramprax (If I am correct). He mentioned about God knowing the time of one's enlightenment. Sri Arvind Ji gave comment on behalf of it that God does not know when in which life one will attain enlightenment.
In regard to this debate between Ramprax and Arvind ji I wanted to say that Sri Ramana Maharishi once said that success and failure don't depend upon mere human effort but the grace of omnipotent God.
Him saying this line clearly affirms that only those will seek enlightenment who have God's grace. Or the other case is only the one with God's grace will achieve enlightenment or jnani by successfully going through the process of jnani.
Hence it is clear that the God knows when and how a person will achieve moksha and he also knows endless births a man may have before enlightenment for he only leads to a man's success whether that may be in the भौतिक जगत or in the आध्यात्मिक one.
Yours Thankfull,
Alluri Sitaram Raju
Hey Fleur. Where are you from?
I just wanted to know your nationality for I got confused by that name.
Thank you
Hi Teddy,
No queries regarding personal info of any commentator on the blog please. A person's nationality or location is strictly their own business as far as this blog is concerned. Lets stick to spiritual matters only.
Best
Hello Arvind,
I just wanted to check that when will my query be answered for you answered someone after my comment but not me.
Please correspond.
Thank you
Dear ASR,
Thank you for your views.
Actually I do not spot a query there. You have basically stated what you believe about predestination and Moksha.
Let me reiterate … this blog does not seek to convert or convince anybody to its own viewpoint. It just presents certain spiritual ideas to the dear reader. And it welcomes divergent views too. And as such, we may discuss a topic for a while, but not ad nauseam. Personally, I am happy if you are happy with your viewpoint …
Wishing you the best
Hi folks,
Forgive me if I have been slow in responding to all your comments. My dad has been very sick for a while now. It has been 3 weeks since an ICU was set up at home for him. There are 2 full time nurses, all sorts of medical equipment, doctor visits to organize and what not. Needless to say, looking after him and managing home single-handedly leaves me little time for other things.
Bear with me folks ... sometimes several days go by before I get time to even look into the blog.
Best wishes
Hello Arvind Lal,
I wish my best for your father to be well and I am extremely sorry for complaining without knowledge. I am in no hurry for my answers and you may take whatever time you want to answer my query.
Be well, best wishes
Regards
Alluri
Dear Arvind,
Thank you for answering my query.
With prayers for your dad
- Fl.
I was going through bhagwana qoutes and I found one qoute there.
It states that,
'Meditation helps concentration of mind. Then the mind is free from thoughts and is in the meditated form.'
I wanted to know that where can I find the original talks behind this qoute.( If this was actually said by Sri ramana maharishi!).
Thank you
Mohan
Is this site still active
Mohan
With respect to the writeup above on dreams being predetermined, are daydreams also predetermined? Mostly they are anyway of the same nature as dreams. That I daydream - is that predetermined? I sometimes fantasize that I have realized the Self and have hordes of devotees and important people and my snobbish friends mobbing me. I am giving them knowledge and leading them to salvation.
Ant-man
Hi Ant-man,
Unfortunately NO, daydreams are not predetermined. There is no excuse available from that angle for carrying on daydreaming. Not that I would consider it to be a particularly bad thing per se. But if one is a sadhaka (seeker), full-on daydreaming would most definitely be counterproductive.
Firstly, to clarify on any confusion regarding similarities between daydreams/fantasies and dreams, the crucial difference is that the former are voluntary. You choose when and what to daydream. Whither predestination then? Conversely, dreams/visions are not under our conscious control, hence opening the door for predestination.
When we are just lying down for instance, doing nothing, we choose to let our mind build up this imaginary narrative to satisfy our craving for relevance. Typically we daydream what we crave should actually happen to us in real life. And thus generate a sense of satisfaction and achievement for ourselves from our imagined success. Not good. Not only did we choose to employ our mental faculties uselessly to give the ego false gratification, we also strengthened it in the process, just the opposite of what we seek as sadhakas. The daydream you mentioned can be particularly damaging for spiritual practice. The mind has already imagined the Ultimate Prize, and is wallowing in the pleasure of imagined glory from that achievement. Why will it ever put in the hard labour required in sincere sadhana for the real thing?
There could also be the case that we are alone in our room and, as part of our fantasy, whirling around with our arms encircling an imaginary missing partner, dancing to imaginary music. The physical act of whirling around then, of course, is predetermined. And thus, it has to be said that the deck has been stacked against us by the Powers that be, encouraging us to imagine the missing partner and music, and thus encouraging the fantasy. Maybe the best way to handle this to quickly switch the accompanying imagination. We may start by imagining we are dancing with the missing partner, but once aware that we are fantasizing, we could then, quickly, re-imagine ourselves as a small child perhaps, dancing joyfully with the Lord Himself in whatever form that appeals to us …
And thus for your second query on whether the fact of your being a daydreamer is predetermined, given that the choice is always available to us to choose what we think/imagine at any point of time, the answer again is an emphatic NO.
Best wishes
Thanks! It was interesting read your example of a fantasy of dancing with an imaginary partner. I mean just how our physical activity is predetermined, but what is in the mind is not.
Well, if the example above was interesting, then you and some folks may find the story of the Butcher from scripture quite fascinating. “Vyadha Gita” (literally “The Butcher’s Song”), is in the Mahabharata though relatively unknown. The barebones story goes like this:
A Sannayasin does austerities for many years under a tree in the forest. One day, whilst in deep meditation, some leaves fall on his head from the tree as the result of a quarrel between two birds perched above. Getting disturbed, the Sannayasin looked up enraged, and burnt to ashes the two birds with the yogic powers he had obtained. Strutting around with pride at his achievement, the Yogi then went to town to ask for alms. But when he knocked on the first door he is told to wait by the housewife, a simple nondescript woman, until she has finished her chores. Again the Yogi flies into a rage and shouts at the housewife that how dare she make him wait, a Siddha with deadly powers. To which he receives the cool reply from the lady that she is not a bird who can be burnt by just a look from the Yogi. Astonished as to how the woman could read minds, a power that the Yogi himself did not have, he asked her how was it possible. The woman tells him that all she did was do her karma, i.e the appointed activities of her station, with diligence, cheerfulness and with the right attitude. The astonished Yogi now asks her for instruction, but she tells him that if he really wants spiritual guidance, he should go to the town butcher, who is actually a great saint! And so the bemused Sannyasin makes his way to the town butcher and is aghast at the sight of blood and slaughtered animals he finds there. With his world turned upside down in that the lowest member of society, the otherwise reviled and despicable butcher, caked in blood and animal entrails, could turn out to be a lofty Self-realized Sage, he begs for instruction. The teachings then given out by the great sage Vyadha, also the town butcher, to the Sannyasin comprise what is known as the Vyadha Gita.
In essence Sage Vyadha tells the Sannyasin that it is NOT the physical acts, that a person is bound to do as per her/his karma and station in life, that matter. Since the person’s karma has already been chalked out, what matters then is the attitude the person has when the act is being done. If the work is done by dedicating it all to the Lord, i.e. as a non-doer, then the work itself is purificatory, and leads on to salvation. After all, what could be a more cruel and non-spiritual than the job of a butcher? And still, even a Sannyasin who had done enormous tapasya was spiritually just a novice when compared to Sage Vyadha, who had done none!
The point is that if, even those physical acts which would be classified as unspiritual are done with the attitude of a non-doer, with remembrance of Bhagavan, then they lead on to rapid spiritual advancement. And conversely, even when doing puja or any other "spiritual" act, if we take ownership of the act, do it with pride, or even with our mind roaming elsewhere, then we are sliding down on the spiritual scale and just adding to our karma seeds, good or bad, that will fructify in future births.
Best wishes
Hi Arvind,
I try to do day to day activities with attention on the Self. But it is so difficult and erratic. After maybe 10 minutes the focus wanders off to other things. Then I feel enormous regret later that I have missed out on so many hours of acts when my attention was elsewhere. My query is that how can the karma seeds added during those many hours of doing acts without being focussed on the Self be removed? If I do the next 10 minutes with greater intensity of focus on the Self, will it also wipe away at least 20 min of accumulation of karma seeds earlier? What is the way to reduce the seeds already in the bag and maybe added this same morning?
Thanxx … K
Hi K, actually even 10 min of unbroken focus on the Self during day-to-day activities is no mean feat! You really should not feel bad about attention wandering off intermittently.
So, how many karma seeds does 20 min (say) of “un-focussed” activity put in one’s bag? Or even 1 min? Does the counter of karma seeds tick over every second, or every minute, or does it tick over once per event? And then, does the whole bag fill up with seeds in 20 minutes, and the rest just spill out? Or maybe our karma bag is an ever expanding balloon, as if made from some super-elastic material. Some of us might be carrying gigantic karma bags the size of Jupiter for all we know! Then, how many karma seeds were used up by the Lord in creating this present life for us? Half? Or does the bag empty out mostly each time we are re-born? These then, ALL, are very hypothetical questions. The simple point is that our existence as the ego “Arvind” (say), even for a second, can be assumed to be accompanied by enough karma seeds to ensure an endless cycle of births-rebirths till eternity. Until the whole lot is decimated in one triumphant (would that be the antonym for “fell”?) swoop, on Self-realization.
In our sadhana, therefore, we should not really be doing a ‘trying-to-reduce-my-karma-seeds’ sort of a thing, as it is actually quite a hopeless undertaking. The Theory of Karma is expounded as an auxiliary aid, with the intent to develop vairagya (renunciation) in the seeker. The firm conviction that every act in the world is pre-determined by the Lord, is a powerful weapon for us to control the mind when pulled hither-thither by personal/world events. But it should not assume primacy in one’s sadhana. The injunction from the Guru is to do Atma-vichara to achieve Self-realization. It is not a round-about - try to reduce karma seeds, thus leave nothing in the bag for the Lord to create a new birth for us, and thus achieve Self-realization.
In practical terms we cannot expect to be able to do “formal” Atma-vichara all the time, i.e by sitting down in a quiet place, with closed eyes etc. etc. For a start, being a physical act, it may not have been “written-in” into our life by the Lord. In fact, to test our ripeness and earnestness of purpose perhaps, He may have pre-determined a hectic daily routine for us - especially designed to distract our mind to the maximum extent possible. In such adverse circumstances for sadhana, and in “our own time” so to speak, a focus on the Self even for a few minutes works in a massively accelerated manner. It tells the Lord that we are earnest in our search and ready for Self-realization. And it is in that sense it may be said that doing acts this way burns our karma seeds, and rapidly empties out our karma bag.
So dear K, please just don’t bother with the morning hours “wasted” when you were distracted thinking of other things, or whatever. Once awareness of the Self returns, maybe after 10 min or 2 hours or whenever, just get back to retaining focus for as long as possible …
Best
Thanxx ... K
_/\_
Is this thread still current? Can anyone still comment?
Is this thread still current? Can anyone still comment? As per dristi srishti everything appears instantaneously just like in dreams. There is no difference in the mechanics of dream and waking . Both are instantaneous projections of the same mind. If that is the case where is the point in talking of karma, destiny, free will etc? If almighty Iswara itself is a concept and is an illusion then what about the insignificant jiva whose life span is only imaginary and appearing instantly and has no life span at all? Why even bother with all these spiritual theories and practices and for whom?
From
Who am I?
“ Lord Iswara may have pre-determined a hectic daily routine for US, as per quote above. For whom sir may I ask when there is no jiva or person at all in the body and when there is no past or future but only this instant. So where is the question or possibility of pre determination and for whom?
Who am I?
Dear Anon,
Thank you for your comments. When you say “If Almighty Iswara is a concept and illusion …”, or when you ask “for whom … when there is no Jiva or person at all in the body …” you are speaking of the situation on a plane which is immeasurably higher and completely differentiated from your (and mine, and everyone else’s) existent state. I am not, of course, talking of spiritual planes/levels in terms of whether she or he is more spiritually advanced than her or him, and so forth. But of planes that are beyond the state of the Jiva itself. Advaita technically calls them the “pratibhasika” and the “paramarthika” levels. The Jiva, on the other hand, exists at the basic, “vyavaharika” level (if unfamiliar with these terms, more is available in my post “The World is Perfect”; also a bit in the “Lokah Samastah …” post).
Sometimes I get emails etc. of the nature: “there is nothing there”, “who is to realize what”, “you have to do nothing, just BE”, “nothing has ever happened”, and so on … and so why all this elaborate explaining of esoteric concepts, or indeed, why any effort at all towards practice?
Well, all of the foregoing characterise and describe a state NOT available to the Jiva. They all ONLY apply in the “pratibhasika” and the “paramarthika” states that kick in once the Jiva disappears. Thus there is no overlap with the state of the Jiva. The Jiva is taught these concepts so that it understands the nature of what’s beyond the seen World, and can strive to achieve it.
For ease of clarification, if I take myself as representing the Jiva, the factual position as experienced day in and day out is: Arvind very much has a personality and a body which is patently real to himself and to others around him; when Arvind cuts himself with a knife, he bleeds and hurts for real; he has a past, a present, and imagines a future for himself; Iswara, the World, the Heavens, Angels and Demons are all real to him; he really needs to understand esoteric concepts to convince himself that there is more to the World than what is seen and experienced; and he needs to practice, practice practice to achieve spiritual evolution!
For, it is only when after effort and practice that (the ego) Arvind extinguishes itself that the Self shines forth. ONLY THEN, and for THAT state only, can we say that “Almighty Iswara is a concept or an illusion …”, or that “there is no Jiva or person at all, nor a body …” etc. etc.
Best wishes
Sir Arvind Lal, I don’t find any difference between you and the believers in dvaita or vishishtadvaita. You still take the waking state as the standard of reality and only your dreams as unreal. You sir, take Sir Arvind Lal the body and person to be the you when that is not the case even now. That is okay and it is your choice. It is just a matter of preference. All the best in your quest.
Who am I?
Sri Arvind Lal,
The Jiva, on the other hand, exists at the basic, “vyavaharika” level, you said. That is totally incorrect. There is no jiva now, nor ever was or ever will be. What you said is like saying the jiva existed even in dreams which is a fallacy. The waking state is no different than dream state. So how can jiva exit even at the vyavaharika level? It (jiva) is only assumed and taken for granted to exist because of non-investigation. So there is no jiva at all period, and the great sage Ramana himself has said this many times in his Tamil works ulladu narpadu and other verses. Just like the 10th man was never lost, the jiva was never gained or existed other in taken for granted imagination without proper investigation, just like not investigating the cause of the 10th man lost. But since you are a dvaitist in practice I respect your errors of perception.
Respectfully,
Who am I?
Meant to say above “the jiva was never gained or even existed other than in taken for granted belief and imagination without bothering to thoroughly and keenly investigate.”
Sri Arvind Lal,
You yourself posted Sri Ramana’s saying in your blog on Sept, 25 2013.
Q: Should one keep a goal before one’s eyes?
M: What goal is there? The thing you conceive as being the goal, exists even before the ego. If we conceive ourselves as ago, or body, or mind, then we are those things. But if we do not conceive ourselves as such, then we are our real nature. It is the thinking that gives rise to such troubles. The very thought that there is such a thing as ego is wrong, because ego is ‘I’-thought and we are ourselves the real ‘I’. The thoughtless state is itself realization. The Vedas’ declaration, ‘I am not this or that’, is only an aid to gain equanimity of mind. If there were a goal to be reached, it could not be permanent. What is called a ‘goal’ is already there. What is in the goal exists even prior to our birth, i.e. the birth of the ego. Because we exist, the ego appears to exist too.
It seems sir you are not yet convinced by what Sri Ramana said and take the mere appearance of a jiva ( ego-body-Arvind Lal ) to be yourself and claim the jiva exists.
Who am I?
Dear Anon,
You said, "It seems sir you are not yet convinced by what Sri Ramana said and take the mere appearance of a jiva ( ego-body-Arvind Lal ) to be yourself and claim the jiva exists."
Sri Ramana did not demand anyone take him at his word or believe blindly just because he said so. He only asks us to enquire within and investigate to see if the jiva exists. One can be *convinced* only after one has investigated and seen it for oneself.
In a previous comment, you asked, "For whom sir may I ask when there is no jiva or person at all in the body and when there is no past or future but only this instant. So where is the question or possibility of pre determination and for whom?"
If the jiva does not exist and never existed, how does your question/doubt exist? Who is asking? Who wants it answered?
Sri Arvind Lal,
You also posted this quote from your Guru Sri Ramana on the same date.
Everyone is the Self, indeed infinite. Yet each one mistakes the body for the Self. To know anything, illumination is necessary. Such illuminating agency can only be in the form of light which is however lighting the physical light and darkness. So then that other Light lies beyond the apparent light and darkness. It is itself neither light nor darkness but is said to be Light because It illumines both. It is also Infinite and remains as Consciousness. Consciousness is the Self of which everyone is aware. No one is away from the Self. So each one is Self-realised. Yet what a mystery that no one knows this fundamental fact, and desires to realise the Self?
Who am I?
Sri Arvind Lal,
You have posted all these brilliant quotes from your Guru and yet you claim to be the mere apparent body, jiva, your name etc. This is a travesty. Sir you are underestimating yourSELF by insisting you are a mere jiva trapped in a body with a name when your Guru tells you otherwise.
Who am I?
Dear Ramprax,
Thanks for your comment. So nice to see you on the blog on this thread after such a long time!
Best
Dear Anonymous,
Thank you so much for your concerns about my spiritual well-being and relationship with my Guru – rather the lack of them according to you.
But why bother in the first place? So much so that you flashed off multiple comments even without waiting for a reply. For, as you say, I don’t exist. Why concern yourself with a non-existent entity? Actually, per you, neither do you exist. Neither does the World. You should have stopped eating – as food does not exist, and neither does hunger. Why are you breathing? There is no air, or life anyway. In fact, come to think of it, since you do not exist, who is it writing away so many long comments here, on this non-existent blog? And then, why? Why on earth are you wasting away non-existent time of your own non-existent self and that of non-existent others?
Don’t you get it? The paradox of the existence of the poor Jiva? It is simple enough. Of course the Guru teaches us that the World is unreal; that we are actually the majestic Self Itself which is deluded into believing It is the Jiva. But the factual position as experienced by us, the Jiva, or the deluded Self, every day, is undeniably that the World will bite in very real terms if you mess with it. And so, as long as the Jiva feels his own personality/ego, the Jiva is trapped in a World that appears very real TO HIM. The Jiva has to use the Guru’s instructions to strip away the layers of delusion with sadhana, so that the Self may shine forth. Only then are the Jiva and the World experientially seen to be non-existent. The snake will not disappear until the rope is actually seen. And this snake, friend, for the average person needs a lot of hard sadhana to make disappear.
Thanks for visiting this blog, Anonymous. I wish you well …
Sri Arvind Lal,
Nice to hear from you again sir. Why did I bother to post you ask? It was not planned or intentional like we post questions or replies on other occasions for a specific reason. You may say it was predestined, preordained etc. as your title says and what you believe in. I did not look for your blog and did not know it was even there. I did not even know about you. I happened to look for another blog but found yours instead saying “you have been told but why have you not realized”? Since it is your blog the question could apply to you also just like it did to Arthur. Since I do not have the option to delete the comments I posted, you may delete them now since the purpose of those comments has been accomplished. They were meant only for you. Once again good luck in your spiritual quest and may the supreme power of grace speed it up instantly.
Who am I?
Sri Arvind Lal,
Nice to hear from you sir. I know I offended you. Why did I bother to post you ask? You may say it was predestined, preordained etc. as your title says and what you believe in. I did not look four blog and did not know it was even there.I happened to look for another blog but found yours instead saying “you have been told but why have you not realized”? Since it is your blog the question could apply to you also just like it did to Arthur. But you got very offended and angry. Since I do not have the option to delete the comments you may delete them now. Good luck in your quest and may God (Sri Ramana’s grace) speed your spiritual enlightenment this very moment. That is all that matters from this
Who am I?
Sri Arvind Lal,
Nice to hear from you sir. Why did I bother to post you ask? You may say it was predestined, preordained etc. as your title says and what you believe in. I did not look for your blog and did not know it was even there. I happened to look for another blog but found yours instead saying “you have been told but why have you not realized”? Since it is your blog the question could apply to you also just like it did to Arthur. Since I do not have the option to delete the comments you may delete them now since the purpose of the comments have been accomplished. The comments were meant only for you and not for anyone else in the blog. Good luck in your quest and may the supreme power of grace speed your spiritual enlightenment this very moment. That is all that matters from the brief discussions. I know you have enabled comments approval moderation. That will not be necessary since I will not be bothering you anymore in your blog
Who am I?
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